What does a marketing broker see when vetting agencies?
Behdad Jamshidi works as a marketing broker at CJAM Marketing. He matches businesses with agencies, and over the last three years he has vetted hundreds of them. When we recorded this, about 50 agencies were on his partner list.
He got into it because he ran out of time. He started out selling websites, Google Ads and SEO, then went looking for agencies to hand the work to. That's when he saw the pattern. Most agencies didn't understand business, and most business owners didn't understand marketing. The two sides would sit in the same meeting and still not agree on what to do next.
His day job helps. He's a customer solution architect, an engineer who talks with leaders at companies of 100 to 1,000 people and builds them a technology roadmap. Because he sits in the middle, he hears feedback that the agency and the business wouldn't get on their own.
I've seen the same split for nine years. A client asks to raise their conversion rate and then asks what a click-through rate is. Behdad's advice for agency owners is to remember there are five or six ways to do most marketing, and to help the client pick one based on risk, cost and who they are.
What should happen on the first call with an agency?
The agency should spend most of the call asking about your business. Behdad says the biggest mistake he sees, from junior agencies and some expert ones too, is an agency that talks about itself. It lists what it does, its logos and its clients, and 15 or 20 minutes in, the client still hasn't said a word.
Behdad flips that. He gives the same two-minute intro he gave me, and the rest of the meeting is about the client: their goals, their competitors, what they've tried, the agencies they've used, and what they liked and didn't like. In the last five minutes he says which agencies he thinks can help. You can't position your agency well until you know what matters to the customer.
This is fully about you, Mr. Customer, and I'm going to position my agency the best way to help you.
As a coach who listens to sales calls, I see the opposite when someone wants the client badly. They steer the call toward the yes. That brings in money now, but if the client isn't set up to succeed, it hurts the trust and how long the contract lasts.
Should an agency admit what it isn't good at?
Yes. Behdad says being open about it helps you keep clients longer. Most agencies are good at two or three things. He sees it most with full-service agencies, which tend to show up around 15 people.
The important thing to understand is you can't be good at everything.
So double down on your strengths and tell clients you're kind of average at the rest. If a client needs email or affiliate work and that isn't your strength, find a partner to send it to. Taking it on anyway means hiring for it or pulling someone off work they're good at, and then nobody does well. An SEO agency should even tell a client when the rest of their funnel isn't ready. Behdad says those clients come back when they're ready.
I learned this the hard way. In my second, third and fourth years of business, we'd get halfway through a project and I'd wonder why we were building an automation sequence at all. We took it on for fear the client would leave for someone who did it all. Behdad says only two setups cover it all well: a very large agency with a client who has a very large budget, or a client with an internal CMO who brings a group of niche agencies together.
Is a niche agency always better?
No. Behdad tells business owners that a strong marketer can beat a niche agency whose marketing is weak. A niche agency knows its industry well, but it can get so specialized that it stops looking at the big picture and misses ideas from other industries.
I asked him about this because I spent years running ads for anybody before I went hyper niche. His advice for a sales call without a niche is to go back to his first point and understand the business. When people feel understood, that's a big plus in your direction. Then explain that working across industries lets you see things a narrow agency may miss. A strong marketer can tell a client that within two months, they'll have worked out the customer profiles and who to target.
When a business owner asks Behdad for a niche agency, he tells them he'd pick the strong marketer and give them three or four months. In the long run, they'll be ahead of an agency that only went niche because it couldn't get business any other way.
How should an agency structure a proposal?
Open with the client's goals and ask them to confirm you got them right. Behdad says the first five minutes and the last five minutes of a presentation are where attention sticks, so don't spend the opening talking about yourself.
After your intro slide, show the business goals and objectives the client gave you on the discovery call. Then ask, "Can you confirm that we got this right?" If they say no, you know you missed something, and they can clarify it on the spot. Build the rest on those goals: here's the plan to reach them, here's why we're the right partner, and here's what it costs. Layered that way, the client thinks: they understand me, they have a plan, and they can guide me from A to B.
Then present it. Behdad sees agencies email the proposal and wait, expecting a client who knows less about marketing to read it and agree. He's noticed that agencies who don't present have much lower close rates. Present it first and send it after, unless the client wants it beforehand. You can't handle an objection if you aren't there when it comes up.
What makes a client pick one agency over another?
They pick the agency they trust to understand them and get them to their goal. For the "why us" part of a pitch, Behdad points to your values and where they line up with the client's, any awards, and case studies from their niche or something close. Walk them through what you did, how you thought about it and how you communicated, so they know what working with you will be like.
Business is a human-to-human interaction, he says, so look up the client's volunteer work and charities and find where you line up.
Do I believe that you understand me enough? Do I trust you if I give you money that you'll do the thing that you said you're going to do, which is help me achieve the goal?
I see proposals with two or three pages of deliverables and 15 or 20 bullet points. Clients don't care about those. They want to know what the process and the experience will look like, and whether you seem credible enough to get them to the finish line. Behdad added that every extra bullet point invites the client to ask if they can take it out. If they ask for detail, give it. If they don't, start at the high level.
What does good agency onboarding look like?
Good onboarding is the same process for every client. Behdad asks about onboarding when he interviews agencies, and he says the best ones have processes in place. They send the same documents to every customer, ask them to fill them out, and answer the questions clients tend to have.
The first few days are where it gets messy. The client says yes and they're excited, and then they have to hand over access to things they can't find. Someone set up a Google Analytics account ten years ago and nobody can get into it anymore.
Behdad's advice is to start with a base outline, even a Word or Google document, and add to it each time you find something missing. Over time you get a process that works for 90 to 95% of your clients. It makes it easy to get the information you need and start the work, and you can automate more of it as it settles. Every client then gets the same result at the end.
Does an agency need to keep growing?
Not always. Behdad says some of his best agencies have 20 people, take on about 20 clients a year and don't want to get bigger. They know exactly who they are, and they vet clients to make sure they get the right ones. Behdad says you can build a very profitable business that way.
Growth comes with new costs. Around 15 or 20 people, Behdad sees a big shift: the owner has to step out and get the business to run by itself. Another shift comes at 40 or 50 people, when you need new processes and systems. Each stage brings new expenses, new hires and new processes to build. So decide where you want to go before you chase the next stage. Behdad's view is that taking care of the client matters more than getting bigger.
I agree with him. Online, almost everything aimed at agency owners is about eight figures and hypergrowth. Every new plateau brings a learning curve and a new set of problems, and at 40 or 50 people you almost have to rebuild the business. I'm motivated the other way. I want to start small and be massively profitable.
What can you do this week?
- On your next sales call, keep your intro to two minutes and spend the rest asking about the client's goals, competitors and past agencies.
- Write down the two or three things your agency does best, and find a partner for the work you're only average at.
- Start your next proposal with a slide of the client's goals, and ask them to confirm you got it right.
- Book a time to present that proposal live before you email it.
- Cut the list of deliverables down to what the process and the experience will look like, and give the detail when the client asks.
- Put your onboarding steps in one document you send to every new client, and add to it each time something is missing.
If you're thinking about what size business you want to build, my episode with Joe Rando on the solopreneur success cycle is a good next listen.
Episode chapters and transcript
Chapters 13
- Meet Behdad Jamshidi, marketing broker
- Agencies don't know business, businesses don't know marketing
- Shiny objects and too many ways to market
- The view from the middle
- Make the first call about the client
- You can't be good at everything
- Selling without a niche
- Open the proposal with their goals
- Present the proposal live
- What to say in the why-us section
- Onboarding new clients
- Growth, or the right size
- Where to find Behdad
Full transcript 21:18
From the YouTube captions, lightly cleaned for punctuation and filler words. Timestamps open that moment in the video.
Meet Behdad Jamshidi, marketing broker
Mike: All right, on today's episode we are talking to Behdad from CJAM Marketing. Thank you so much for joining.
Behdad: Thanks for having me, Mike.
Mike: So tell the listeners, tell the people that are tuning in to this, what it is that you do. Maybe that two-minute elevator pitch version.
Behdad: Sure. Well, I always like to share what I do. I still work two jobs, right? But those two jobs go very well hand in hand. My day job, I work as a customer solution architect, which basically is an engineer. I'm an engineer that talks to businesses anywhere from 100 to a thousand people in size, typically talking to C-level executives about business strategy, IT, what they're struggling with, and then building them out a technology roadmap.
So I have a lot of experience in terms of the business consulting and engineering side. But on the marketing side, the CJAM Marketing side, I work as a marketing broker.
Agencies don't know business, businesses don't know marketing
Behdad: Initially I started doing websites, Google Ads, SEO. As I was doing that, I noticed I didn't have a lot of time to do the work I would sell to customers. So I started looking for agencies to outsource work to. And as I was doing that, I started noticing that most agencies didn't understand business and most business people didn't understand marketing. You'd have these two people in the same meeting trying to talk to each other, but they couldn't understand what they wanted to do moving forward for their businesses.
So I thought, cool, I have the background in the business side of things, an engineering degree, and I know marketing, so maybe I can start matching the right agency partners with the right businesses. Over the last three years, I've vetted hundreds of agencies. I work with a partner list of about 50-plus agencies today, and that's what I do.
Mike: Yeah, it was a very funny insight, that the marketing agencies don't know business and the businesses don't know marketing. That's so true. I can count on all the fingers and toes on my body how many conversations in the past nine years I've had where someone came in being like, "Look, we just need to get our conversion rate up to here. This is how I think we could do it." And then they're like, "What's a click-through rate?" Jesus.
And their friend just told them over a beer, "Hey, you need to be doing SEO." And they come to you and you're like, "Well, you don't even have a brand strategy. You have nothing to build your SEO strategy off of. So hold on a second. Let's take a step back."
Shiny objects and too many ways to market
Mike: It's pretty funny. A lot of the conversations I have, I do a lot of consulting, like free consulting up front. And it's interesting, because I think marketing is one of those services that's very hit and impacted by shiny object syndrome, right? Which is like, oh, my friend told me I've got to do YouTube, or this person said I have to be on TikTok, and now I want to blow up everything I'm doing to dive into this new thing. We have to do it. It's kind of crazy.
Behdad: It's a tough place for businesses to be in too, right? As an agency owner, you need to understand that there are so many different ways of doing marketing. There's no one set way to do something. There could be five or six different ways. Being able to simplify that down for a customer and say, "Look, we can do this in multiple ways. It's just going to depend on who you are as a business and your personality to choose which way makes most sense for you in terms of risk and cost and all that."
The view from the middle
Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I know that you work on both sides, but the area that I'd love to stay on today is the agency owners who don't know how to run businesses. Obviously we're not going to hand out business advice on how to structure your company today, but I think it will be really helpful. You see both sides of it. You've been involved in the pitch, presentation and execution, but also now the brokerage side, which is having third-party conversations with people and getting real feedback, right?
Because you're getting feedback that you wouldn't get if you were the agency or if you were the business. You're getting the real information because you're sitting in the middle as an independent person. So what I'd love to dive into is, as an agency owner or someone trying to grow a marketing business, what are the top mistakes or the biggest things that you see being done incorrectly when you're marketing yourself, when you're pitching to a company, when you're presenting what you do? What are the biggest issues that you see?
Make the first call about the client
Behdad: I guess we could start this in terms of the customer journey. Let's start at the top, right? You just met a customer as an agency owner, you're having that first meeting, and the biggest mistake I see, whether it's junior agencies or even some expert agencies, is that they focus a lot on themselves versus focusing on the customer. So a lot of the conversations start as, "Hey, we do this as an agency, we've done this, we have these logos, we have these customers." And you're 15, 20 minutes into a meeting and the customer hasn't even spoken a word.
How are you supposed to position your agency if you don't even understand what matters to the customer? So I flip that. That two-minute speech I did in the beginning, that's all I say in my customer meetings. The rest is, let's talk about your business. Let me understand what your goals are. Five minutes to the end, I might talk about it. Now that we went through your entire business, I understand what your goals are, who your competitors are, what you tried, what agencies you use, what you like, what you don't like.
Then I go, okay, based on that, I have some agencies that will be able to fill in the gaps that I think will help you get to the goals you want. Right now you've totally shifted the conversation. It's not about me. This is fully about you, Mr. Customer, and I'm going to position my agency the best way to help you. On top of that, customers build a lot of trust when you understand their business goals and what they're trying to do.
And maybe you're just an SEO agency, and you can only help with a little piece of that. Just be honest about that and say, "Look, you might need to figure out the rest of your funnel, or you might need to figure out the rest of your marketing before I can come in and help." And when you do that, those customers will come back when they're ready. But you put them in a better position to not fail.
Mike: That's kind of interesting. Yeah, I think the power of that insight can't be overstated, because as a coach listening to sales calls, one of two things can happen with the person that's trying to pitch. They really want this client. They want to get it. So they're kind of, not lying or manipulating, but kind of steering the conversation in a way that gets the yes.
And what can happen with that is, you're right, if you don't have control over each piece, or you don't have expertise in each piece that makes your piece successful, getting them to sign up and on board is great for the money now, but the longevity of that customer and the trust and length of the contract can really be impacted if they aren't set up in other ways for success. So that's a really great point.
You can't be good at everything
Behdad: 100%. Another area, let's talk about a full-service agency. Typically you start seeing those agencies when they get to that 15-person range. For those types of agencies, the important thing to understand is you can't be good at everything. Everyone outside that knows agencies knows that the likelihood is you're good at two or three things. Double down on those and be honest about the other stuff. "Listen, we're kind of average at this stuff. We'll do it for you, but we're kind of average."
Just be transparent with customers around those things. That'll help you retain customers longer. Once you get a customer, they know that your website's really strong, you're good at PPC, you're really good at SEO. But if they need affiliate or they need email, maybe you need to find partners that you can outsource to, rather than just taking something on that you can't do. Then you're trying to hire a headcount, and you're trying to take someone's attention away from what they're really good at to something that they're not really good at. And then everyone isn't doing well in those situations. So I find that's another mistake I see quite often.
Mike: I went through this experience, this fear of, wait, we don't control these two or three things. They will have an impact on the project not working. I always had this thought: well, it has to be me. We have to do it. We have to figure it out. I remember vividly, in my second, third and fourth year of business, there were several times where we got halfway through a project and I'm like, what are we doing in this project? Why are we developing this automation sequence? What is happening right now?
But you do it because of that fear that if we don't take care of it all, they're going to go somewhere else that can do it all. But it's an interesting perspective that even the bigger companies most of the time have one or a couple of areas of expertise, and everything else is manageable but not great.
Behdad: To really cover all areas, you either need to be a really large agency and your customer needs to have a really large budget. That's one of the ways to do it. And the other one is a customer might have an internal CMO, but then have a bunch of niche agencies that they work with, and that internal CMO brings it all together. That's the only way you can really do it well as an agency.
Just call that out and say, "Look, this is the way the industry is built. Mr. Customer, let me share with you some insights so that you don't go out thinking there is this one agency that will do it all. The likelihood is they're going to do the same thing. They're good at two or three things. Unless you've increased your budget drastically, it's not going to be what you expect it to be."
Mike: So those are really great points. Being upfront with what you're good at from the get-go, asking a lot of questions and really diving into what the genuine need of this customer is, is a great place to start.
Selling without a niche
Mike: When you're not niched down... I spent a lot of years not having any niche, just, we run these types of ads for anybody, versus now, where we're hyper niche. It's a very, very specific type of company that we work with. What are some ways that you can go into a conversation intelligently when you are not super niched down from an industry perspective?
When I think about my ideal customer and who that person is, and mapping out all their stresses and what success would look like for them, it's very easy if you're in one specific bucket like audiology. I know what they're concerned about. I know where their marketing knowledge shortfall typically lies. But for somebody who's like, we do these specific services for a wider group of people, do you have any thoughts or advice on how to hone in that conversation?
Behdad: Yeah, I guess the best way that I would go at it from a sales perspective is, one, always going back to my first point: stick to the business, right? Understand the business. When people feel that they're understood, that's a big plus in your direction. Then on top of that, when you're talking to customers, explain that getting different exposure from different industries allows you to see the big picture that some very niche agencies may not see.
Say you only work with course creators. Over time that niche agency continuously figures out the course creator stuff. They get so specialized that they don't come back and look at the big picture of what else could we try, what else could be different. They're not getting experience from other industries that could be leveraged for a course creator. At the end of the day, you need to just be a really strong marketer.
You need to tell customers, "Look, we're really good at marketing. Within two months, by the time we figure out the customer profiles, what we're targeting, doing all these different types of things, we're really good at marketing. We can figure it out." That's what I tell customers too, when they come to me saying, "I want a niche agency for this." I'm like, look, niche isn't always better. Just because they have four or five customers in that niche...
Yeah, they might know the niche better than someone who's never done it before. But if you have a really strong marketer versus a niche agency where the marketing isn't strong, I would choose the really strong marketer, invest in them for the next three, four months, and know that they're going to be ahead in the long run of that niche agency that just went niche because they had to, because they couldn't get business any other way.
Open the proposal with their goals
Mike: Interesting. That's a very unique perspective on that. I like that. Cool. So we've kind of unpacked what this person needs. We're really focused on them in the call. We're being open and honest about what we're great at and what we're bad at, but saying, "Hey, come along for this ride, because we can take you in the direction you need to go." I love the shift into now: okay, so now we're putting together a proposal. We're pitching. Are there any big pitfalls, errors, mistakes that you see agencies making in the pitch?
And part two to that question: from the business side, the person who's making the decision to buy that service, is there anything that you see agencies not doing well, or things they should do more of or less of, to make that business feel more comfortable or more likely to move forward with them?
Behdad: Yeah. So there's a few things on the proposal side. The first mistake I see starts right from the beginning. If you're not focusing on the business, it falls into your presentation too. A lot of what I see is, when you get into a presentation, the first thing you do is start talking about yourself. The first five minutes and the last five minutes of a presentation are the most important. That's where the attention sticks. The middle is not really that important. It's the beginning and the end.
So what I recommend is, if you've had that good discovery call and you understand the business goals, the first thing you should talk about after your "this is my intro" slide should be, "Look, these are the business goals and objectives that you, Mr. Customer, told us, and that's why we're focusing on this plan." And confirm them: "Can you confirm that we got this right?" If they say no, then you know that you missed something. So you get them to clarify right then and there what their business goals are.
After you have that, the rest of your presentation is built on saying, we know what your business's goals are. Here's the plan that we want to do for you to achieve your goals, here's why we're the chosen partner, and here's how much we're going to cost. So when you layer it that way, the customer goes, they understand me, they have a plan for it, they're the guys that are going to guide me from point A to B. That increases the likelihood of you closing, or at least getting the customer to follow along.
Present the proposal live
Mike: Got it.
Behdad: The other big thing I see a lot of times is you'll take the discovery call, do the proposal, send the proposal in an email, and then just sit there. You expect the customer, who doesn't understand marketing as well as you do, to go through your proposal and go, "Ah, this makes sense." You have to present that proposal. It has to be presented, and then you send it to them afterwards, right? Some customers like it beforehand, which is fine, but that's another big thing. I've noticed a lot of agencies just don't present it, and their close rates are much lower.
Mike: I'm working with someone right now who I'm forcing to do the presentation. I have a certain understanding of marketing as the business owner, but if you present something to me and I don't understand the second bullet point, I'm already tapped out. I'm already like, "Oh, I'm too stupid to understand this. This feels overwhelming. I don't want to do it." You don't have the ability to handle objections in any capacity unless you're there answering those questions.
What to say in the why-us section
Mike: I agree it's critically important. I love the format. Reconfirm what the goals are. Express that this plan is specifically tailored to those goals. Those two pieces are very subjective, so it's really hard for me to ask questions about that. But the part about why us, why you should work with us, I'd love to dive a little bit deeper into that. What are the most important things to emphasize when you're expressing that part of your presentation, the why we're the people you should move forward with?
Behdad: Yeah. So it can be a mix of a bunch of different things. It really depends on the agency and what your strengths are. The why us really comes down to who you guys are as an agency. So, highlighting the values that you have, if the values align with the business's values, basically trying to find things that connect. If you have awards, that's always good. If you have use cases that apply to that specific customer, in their niche or something similar, highlight those.
Tell them what you did. Walk them through what you did, your thinking, your thought process, the communication aspect. You basically want to answer the customer's questions up front about what it's going to be like working with you and what they can expect, right? And at the end of the day, business is a human-to-human interaction. So try to connect. Look up their business and see what they do: volunteer work, charities. Is there anything you can align with, to say your business and our business are aligned, and I'm aligned to your goals, so that's why you should work with us?
Mike: Yeah. Got it. So case studies and awards are kind of that top-level surface piece that helps, right? And then, where can you build a real connection? Because ultimately, if you're on the phone with the decision maker, they don't even have to believe in your entire process, because they probably don't even understand it. They're just like, I'm taking your word that what you're telling me is the thing to do. If they knew it, they would just have this in-house or deal with it themselves, right?
So ultimately, all the deliverables and all the strategic pieces, from my experience, they don't even really care that much. It really is just: do I believe that you understand me enough? Do I trust you, if I give you money, that you'll do the thing that you said you're going to do, which is help me achieve the goal? I read a lot of proposals, and I see a lot of documents with two or three pages of deliverables in the Google Slides, and I'm like, why are there 15, 20 bullet points? They don't care.
They want to know what the process is going to look like, what the experience is going to look like, and does it feel like you're credible enough to get me to the finish line on this thing. Those are the only things people care about.
Behdad: 100%. When you start doing those bullet points, you open yourself up to, "Can I take this bullet point out? Why are we doing this?" You make it harder for yourself to sell by putting way too much detail into it. If they ask for it, answer it. But if they don't, start at the high level. That's what people care about.
Onboarding new clients
Mike: Yeah, awesome. One more subject that I want to bring up. So the person now goes through that process, right? We've had a great discovery call. We've presented ourselves in a way that made them feel understood. We brought them a presentation that confirms their goals and makes them know that we understand it and know how to solve it. And they say, "Great, sounds good." So they say yes. What are the main things to focus on now to onboard that person in the most successful way possible?
Because I'm excited, I say yes, but what then happens is, great, now I've got to give you access to stuff. I don't even know where some of this stuff is. What is a Google Analytics account? Where do I find it? Someone, ten years ago, thinks they created it, and we don't have access to it anymore. From onboarding and getting everything up and running, those first critical few days or weeks, what are the biggest things people can do to make the customer feel like they're getting a great experience?
Behdad: I guess I don't see a ton of that, because once I pass it off to an agency, they typically go through that themselves. But in my interviews with agencies, I do ask what their onboarding process is. At the end of the day, the best agencies have processes in place. They're not just going off the cuff based on each individual customer. They're going, "Here's the documents. Please fill this out." It's systematized, it's the same for every single customer, and it answers all the customer's questions.
Once you start with a base outline, you can iterate on that: oh, we missed this, or we missed that. Over time you have a process that works for pretty much 90, 95% of your customers, and it makes it really easy for you to get information and get started, versus trying to figure out, oh, we need this, we need that. You have to have those systems in place. It could be a Word document, a Google document, whatever it is. Just have a process in place so that you can iterate and automate that part of the process as much as you can, and you get the same result at the end.
Growth, or the right size
Mike: Yeah, absolutely. On behalf of agency owners, what did I not ask you that they should think about, know, prepare or build? Anything that I missed where you're like, it would be really helpful if agencies knew this about selling their services to businesses?
Behdad: I've noticed this thing as agencies grow. When you're one, two, three people, that's totally fine. You get to about 15 or 20, and there's this fundamental shift where, as an owner, you need to start stepping out of your business and get the business to run by itself. The people that do that successfully are the ones that are able to get out of the business at that point. I see another one happen at the 40 or 50 person level too. You get to a certain scale where you need to have certain processes and systems in place.
So just be aware. Everyone wants to grow. Growth is important, but with growth comes a whole new set of expenses, people you need to hire and processes you need to build. Always think about where you want to be and where you want to go, and have those systems in place. But sometimes it's okay to just be a certain size. Some of my best agencies are like, "We're 20 people. We don't want to get bigger. We can cater to 20 customers a year, and that's all we want to do. We're just vetting to make sure we get the right customers."
Those agencies know what they want, and they've figured out exactly who they are. So I think it's really important to think about yourself as an agency owner and where you want to go. It's not always growth that matters. It's going, I'm going to focus on the customer. I'm going to take care of the customer. If I do that at 20 people, for 20 businesses, all the time, and do it well, I can make a very profitable business out of that.
Mike: Yeah, that's interesting that you say that, because when agency owners and marketers are on the internet, everything on YouTube, everything is about getting to eight figures, hypergrowth, do this, do that. I have conversations with people all the time, and my first question is, why? "Well, because it's widely accepted that once you get to a million dollars a year, you're super happy." My profit margins are outrageous. I do 650,000. I pull a ridiculous salary. All my life expenses are paid for. I have no stress, and I work 60 hours a month.
It's really interesting that you say the best-performing ones look like that, because they can focus on how we make our process better, how we maximize profit while still delivering a good product. Whereas the people in hypergrowth at 15 people, there's this evolution, all these extra things you have to add. Then you get to 40, 50 and you have to almost recreate the entire business. And every time you reach that next plateau, there's the learning curve, the drop-off, the problems, the challenges.
So yeah, it's interesting that you say that, because I'm very motivated in the opposite way to growth. I'm like, how do I start small and be massively profitable? That's what I care about.
Where to find Behdad
Mike: If someone wants to chat and learn more about you or contact you, where would they best go?
Behdad: Well, you have my website, www.cjammarketing.com. You'll have my email address on there too. It's just B and my last name, at cjammarketing.com. Those are probably the two best ways to get a hold of me, or just add me on LinkedIn.
Mike: Sounds great. All right, man, I really appreciate your time. I'm thinking about the next conversation, getting granular in some other directions, but this was fun, and I think for a lot of agencies who struggle with one of these pieces, this will give some good direction to start with, and we can go from there.
Behdad: Awesome. I'm glad. Thanks for having me.